A Dressage Rider Questions Eventing
An ongoing joke with my barn friends has been that if Bast doesn't make it as a dressage horse, I'm selling him to a kid as an eventing pony. Though he shows no sign of failing as a dressage horse, I decided to sign him up for a very low key combined test in our backyard anyway.
Most people probably attempt to teach their horse to jump before taking him to a show where he's going to be expected to do a course. It's probably a good idea to that. But, of course, I didn't. Haphazard horse training at its best over here, guys. To be fair, I signed up for crossrails. I figured Bast is trained enough at this point to go where I point him and step over the poles.
Speaking of training, I have no experience training a horse to jump. I'm totally winging it. However, this doesn't stop me from having a multitude of feelings on the subject. Brace yourselves. Uneducated rants are coming…
First of all, I hate jumping a horse I cannot turn or stop. I prefer to have a horse schooling first level (ish) concepts before I jump it. With this in mind, it drives me nuts to sign up for jumping only to have the dressage test be Intro A. I have so many thoughts about Intro A as a test, not many of them are positive. Two that stand out most:
This brings me to my second issue. Green horses are one thing, but barely broke is something completely different. Multiple times over the past few years, I have seen horses that seem barely backed being piloted through lower level events. Of course this is often a schooling shows, but it's mystifying to me. What purpose is there of flying around a course on a horse that seems totally confused about steering, stopping, carrying a rider, and picking up its feet? Is this a valid training process, sort of a "sink or swim" test? I don't get it. It seems utterly dangerous and counter productive.
Maybe this second issue here is related to the first? Is the relative ease of the dressage tests at eventing levels encouraging horses that are not adequately educated?
I know I'm just a dressage rider here, but I'm legitimately curious. I can't be alone in wondering these things. Is there something I'm missing?
Most people probably attempt to teach their horse to jump before taking him to a show where he's going to be expected to do a course. It's probably a good idea to that. But, of course, I didn't. Haphazard horse training at its best over here, guys. To be fair, I signed up for crossrails. I figured Bast is trained enough at this point to go where I point him and step over the poles.
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| POLES?! |
First of all, I hate jumping a horse I cannot turn or stop. I prefer to have a horse schooling first level (ish) concepts before I jump it. With this in mind, it drives me nuts to sign up for jumping only to have the dressage test be Intro A. I have so many thoughts about Intro A as a test, not many of them are positive. Two that stand out most:
- - I think it's poorly suited to a green horse (but well suited for a green rider). There's too much walk work, especially on the centerline. Who in god's name can keep a green horse straight on the centerline walking?! I don't know about you, but every green horse I've ever ridden has the drunkest walk known to mankind. This is a cruel ask.
- Why is there no canter? When you are jumping you typically are trying from a canter. Shouldn't it be proven in your dressage test that your horse can actually canter? What kind of uselessness is there to prove your horse can walk a centerline, when you don't care if I can stop a horse from a canter?
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| Plz to understandz? |
Maybe this second issue here is related to the first? Is the relative ease of the dressage tests at eventing levels encouraging horses that are not adequately educated?
I know I'm just a dressage rider here, but I'm legitimately curious. I can't be alone in wondering these things. Is there something I'm missing?
I also like to be able to stop, steer, keep their body straight and adjust the canter when I jump.
ReplyDeleteI'd say my green beans (all 2 of them lol) were knocking at the door of first level before I started jumping them over anything of substance. Before then it was a lot of trotting jumps or doing small gymnastics.
In 100% fairness, at that level I probably wouldn't canter any of the x's anyway so there not being cantering in the test isn't a huge thing? But the intro tests suck. I usually try and get to the point where I'm not doing any of those before I compete.
They are just so hard for young horses. But, again, good for young or inexperienced riders.
DeleteAs someone who keeps buying giant horses that are hard to adjust at the canter for a while you can still totally jump without an adjustable canter lol
DeleteLOL L! Not discounting the possibility of the action, just don't personally enjoy it. Haha!
DeleteHonestly? The dressage tests aren't harder because it's not a dressage-based sport. The dressage shouldn't be difficult, and it shouldn't be weighted any more heavily than it already is. This is a jumping sport, not a dressage show, and the jumping phases carry far more emphasis. The dressage tests are designed to be relatively simple on purpose, they aren't meant to test the horse and rider as a straight dressage pair. It's merely showing that a very fit athletic jumping horse is still well-trained enough to go in a tiny dressage arena and execute a simple test relatively correctly and obediently. Plenty of pure showjumping horses can't really do that (I can say from experience! lol). And while the tests might seem very easy to you, for people/horses who are expected to do 3 sports at the same time, and train for 3 sports at the same time, plus do conditioning, it's not nearly as simple. Eventers are very part-time dressage riders, at best. The test doesn't have to be harder to be better ridden, and the ones that are better ridden are the ones that rise to the top.
ReplyDeleteTo me a lot of this is apples and oranges. There aren't going to be any 10m rollbacks in stadium in eventing ever, and producing a good counter canter in a 40x20 dressage court is a lot different from a horse that doesn't have flying changes and canters around a stadium corner on the wrong lead. To be fair, just about anybody COULD do those things, if they're good enough riders to be jumping a course. I can't think of a single BN rider I know who couldn't go make a 10m circle or hold together a bit of counter canter. It probably wouldn't score well in a dressage test setting, but they could do it. I get where you're coming from, because yes flatwork is the basis of everything (although I have never agreed that jumping is just dressage with fences in the way), but we still have to remember what the sport it IS and what the emphasis of said sport is meant to be. The dressage tests should always be relatively simple in comparison to the jumping phases. We've seen the sport actually get less safe in the past when we've tried to add more emphasis to the dressage phase. People start buying horses that aren't as good of jumpers, and they spend more time on the flatwork instead of the o/f. It wasn't good.
I have no opinion on Intro B or what kind of scary riding is happening at schooling shows... I feel like scary riding and unprepared people/horses are unfortunately a standard thing across the board when it comes to all horse sports at the lower/unrecognized levels. Definitely not just a problem in one discipline. But also not really fair to judge any discipline based on it's lowest levels or a schooling show. We all know how those can be.
I start jumping my horses pretty much as soon as they can steer, personally. I make it part of their repertoire from the very beginning, even if it's just tiny fences or poles on the ground. That's my personal preference though, one that I've acquired from starting horses o/f since I was a kid. That said, I've seen it done both ways and work both ways. Granted, I wouldn't take one to a show if it wasn't confidently jumping courses at home. On the other hand, we all know what can happen those first few times you take a green one off the farm and all the sudden they forget everything they ever knew. Hard to judge someone's training skills from a glimpse of one outing.
"I can't think of a single BN rider I know who couldn't go make a 10m circle or hold together a bit of counter canter."
DeleteI know a lot.... like, a lot... who definitely would not fit that description. maybe I just run with a more sloppy crowd
also maybe: in your area events are far away and the investment is a lot more. so maybe in area 2 where you could hit 3 different schooling horse trials in one week (really) so maybe people don't feel the need to be as polished?
Maybe so. We don't have many schooling shows at all (read: like, 3) so they tend to not be all that different from our recognized shows. Honestly the only differences are that they're cheaper and we don't have to braid.
DeleteIt's funny because I watched my trainer's BN lessons last weekend and she was having them do a 10-15m circle in the middle of a line as one of their exercises... none of them really had much trouble with it!
I'm not suggesting the weighting for dressage should be changed at all. I agree wholeheartedly that the jumping is important in eventing and should be held as thus. However, I find it odd that the dressage doesn't support the jumping better. Doesn't ask the horses to be suppled appropriately for their jumping course. To do more serpentines or changes of direction, more half halts. Things that encourage a horse to move through, forward, and into the bridle. Eventing tests seem to encourage the front to back riding that seems to result in more stops and scary XC jumps. This could easily be remedied. Also, boring dressage tests are legit AWFUL. No wonder people hate that part of lower level eventing. Yeesh.
DeleteI think it's interesting that you view eventing as a jumping sport. In my head it's always been three distinct sports that you're supposed to be equally (or as equally as the horse is capable) good at.
DeleteIn my thinking that means you should be as good at the level of dressage as you are at the level of jumping. I look at it like I look at triathalons.
But maybe I shouldn't. I certainly would want most people to be best at the XC since the margin for error there could mean injury rather than a bad score.
And as you've said, most eventers don't even like dressage. Until that negative mindset changes (if it ever does) no one would show up if dressage got a little truer.
I wonder how much of that negative mindset comes from the mind numbing bore that is lower level eventing dressage?
DeleteI am kind of on the fence, as an eventer myself. Amanda (900fbpony) made some good points, but I am definitely more in the boat of "get them around 1st level before they're jumping anything more than crossrails."
ReplyDeleteI'm schooling 1st and knocking on the door of 2nd and showing Novice (3 foot). The dressage test feels very easy, but I know that on show day it is hard to put all 3 phases together so I'm almost thankful for it.
A lot of event riders hate dressage too, so I feel like making the tests harder makes it more likely that less people will show up. Dressage is important. It is the foundation of everything, but a lot of riders don't see it that way and just see it as a nuisance. Also the jumping phases are supposed to hold more weight, and as you go further up the levels that becomes more and more the case.
Maybe harder isn't the right word. I'm not suggesting people at Starter should be out there doing counter canter. But I do think the tests could better reflect the actual questions asked. And I agree, I don't want to jump a horse I can't turn. Lol.
DeleteHmmmm good points I think! Never really thought about it before, but you are definitely right. I remember doing my first dressage test as a kid as part of my first eventing experience ( I was 11) and thinking why am I cantering around a 2'3" course but only asked to do walk/trot? I was very confused. Coming from the hunter world with a flat class always I found that very strange.
ReplyDeleteNow that I focus on dressage I have spent a lot of time in "intro land" on green horses too and I hate all the walking! I would much rather add in canter and skip the extended walking sections....
As for your original point, I personally think the flat portions could definitely be created to better match the questions asked in the jumping portions, and maybe just assessed differently... but I am now a purely dressage person now so what do I know! ;)
Haha, I'm with you. Once you get into the addiction of pure dressage you're like "why doesn't everyone get excited by endless circles?!"
DeleteWhile I can't comment on the Intro tests in regards to eventing, I can say that I have entered the Canadian walk/trot tests and have partook in x-rail classes at the same show. Sometimes it isn't about cantering in the test, sometimes its about getting your young horse out and in the classes for experience and a low pressure atmosphere.
ReplyDeleteI'll admit, we were the ones in a x-rail hunter class without steering because Annie's brain fell out of her head her first show. *shrugs* You just keep plugging along and build confidence as you go - I certainly would not have done a 2' course with her being unable to steer, but just trotting along the 18" X's was safe and suited us just fine.
I personally don't like to wait for my horses to be solid first, second or third level before taking them out to show. We go to a variety of fun events that offer practice dressage and jump courses so we can piddle around at a low-pressure atmosphere, and we take advantage of the schooling shows to do just that... school.
Totally agree that there's a time and place for young horse exposure! And there's a big difference between solid first level and a horse introduced to the concepts of moving away from leg pressure (leg yield) and able to execute a circle smaller than 20 meters. I don't think there's a score requirement, but overall better schooled horses can't be a bad thing.
DeleteFrom my own (limited) experience, the dressage part is way harder than the jumping part, so I get that the dressage test would be comparatively easy. I've admittedly pondered the same thoughts as you...There are a few horses I've sat on that go at a decent XC level but I personally wouldn't want to jump them over solid obstacles feeling as green as they do in the stop/go and steering departments.
ReplyDeleteI think the needs are very different for a horse expected to jump vs do upper level dressage. My horses are much more wiggly than most jumping horses I've sat on, and I imagine that helps get around a course. That just makes me question more why the tests don't seem to support the jumping.
Deleteso glad you guys had fun in your class <3
ReplyDeletealso fwiw i think charlie would have laid down and died if i made him wait to jump until he could be reasonably proficient at first level lol... personally, i don't necessarily feel like there should be thresholds or prerequisites before cross training can be useful. we all hear all the time about how focused dressage work will improve the jumping horse, but my experience is that it's a two way street.
with charlie, i could poke and prod and cajole and caress all day long to get him to try to shorten and lengthen his stride and be more longitudinally adjustable.... but nothing really drives that point home to a horse quite like an obstacle in a fixed position. teaching charlie to jump opened him up to a whole new realm of possibilities when it came to his own flexibility, and thus improved his dressage substantially.
Eee! We really did. Details coming...
DeleteYeah. I see the personal preference there. Some horses definitely benefit from the forward thinking that jumping encourages. I just wish I saw more of that forward thinking in the dressage portions than I usually do. Even at upper levels there's so much backward riding in the ring, and that can't be good for the cross training.
for sure, i think it goes both ways, ya know? depending on the type of horse and type of rider. tho to your point about the "backward riding" not being good for the cross training, i'd echo something you said to me years ago with isabel, when you encouraged me to do more shoulder in with her.
Deletemy feeling was, i'm not going to do it very well and i didn't want to "mess anything up" by not being perfect, so i didn't even want to try. but you reminded me that there's no risk in trying and i should just go for it, that mistakes are just part of the process of learning.
honestly i see a pervasive attitude in dressage that something should be "correct" in order for it to be useful. it made me feel for a long time that the discipline was inaccessible to newcomer me, who was guaranteed to not ride things as well or correctly as they "ought" to be ridden. like, "do stretchy trot, but not on the forehand otherwise you don't get the benefit!"
but.... maybe it's ok to do it not-so-well in the beginning, to at least learn. and that's what the lowest levels of eventing are designed for, ya know? like, yea you're not supposed to ride backwards, but at BN it's still safe enough for you to figure that out and get more mileage. as you move up the levels, the speeds and technicality required for the jumping phases increasingly test that commitment to the forward ride, more so than what can be demonstrated in the sandbox ;)
I think all three of the Intro tests are not fun. And I agree not for a green bean horse. I did Intro C for a while and was like ready to move up in eventing just to get to BN A for something different. BN A is acutally easier to me (and Remus) than any of the intros. Even the walk trot ones.
ReplyDeleteIntro is literally the worst in my mind. It's just awkward and hard. But it serves its purpose in the dressage world for horses who can't do more and riders who don't know how yet.
DeleteInteresting comments from both sides.
ReplyDeleteAs a dressage rider I don't think I'd ever be able to do more than cavaletti before training/first. But I also think I've gotten to the point where I'd worry too much about the quality between the jumps to be a good jump trainer.
I've seen so many young and inexperienced riders kick and yank their horses around the low level schooling shows here in Missouri that it both terrifies and saddens me. My horse would 100% quit with that type of riding. It's not fair to the horse and it's not safe for the rider. Seeing those riders makes me yearn for a few more basic dressage requirements too. Though I think I'd say training level is probably adequate for cross rail courses.
As far as the back to front riding that's so common--that's probably never going to be totally fixed in eventing. Just like I'm not able to jump a pretty course they won't be able to put down the best dressage test.
And all of this isn't to say that I also don't see a bunch of back to front riding at regular dressage shows. Nor are all jumping/eventing shows lacking quality riders.
And I'll add that I'm definitely the person who is over-prepared for shows. I'm schooling at least one level higher at home than I am showing. I don't want my horse to face anything new or too difficult at a show training-wise.
DeleteIt's interesting to me that I see more quality flatwork from eventers in the jumping warm up than in the dressage warm up. How weird is that? ;)
DeleteI've done both the overprepared thing and the winging it thing, for different reasons. Definitely prefer the overprepared.
As a H/J rider lol - there is so much questionable riding and training at the bottom level of the sport but then I am not one to talk considering I just took Dante out for his first 3' course ever at an A rated horse shows so...
ReplyDeleteI mean ... I took a horse who hasn't really ever jumped and signed him up for speed bumps. LOL. Clearly I can't talk either.
DeleteI have a fondness for the intro tests at events. When I first bought Nilla she didn't know how to canter. This is not an exaggeration; she really didn't know how to canter like a normal equine. She didn't even canter in the pasture, she just bounced along stringing together a series of crown hops. It took a long time - A LONG TIME - to get her to canter under saddle in anything approaching a normal fashion. And this was with professional training. It took another year to get her to a point where I was willing to canter her in front of a judge. Even then, canter transitions at our first few canter-included shows were rather hilarious.
ReplyDeleteHowever, in between getting her to the point of being able to canter (and steer around a jumping course while doing so) but not wanting to show her cantering to a judge, we did a series of schooling events at the intro level. We would do the dumb intro W/T tests and then we got to go have fun cantering and trotting around stadium and XC courses hopping over little jumps. Maybe we couldn't do a 10m circle, but we were safe jumping around at the <2' level. Could I have waited another year to show? Sure. But sometimes I like to do shows for FUN and not just for the masterful perfection of it all. With Nilla now possible permanently retired, I am extremely glad I can look back fondly on my memories of doing those intro events. I can watch helmet cam videos of Nilla's big ears eagerly perked at the XC jumps as she dragged me to them and not think, damn, I wish I'd waited until we could canter better before I took her to an event.
I was going to comment Preach Girl but then got totally distracted by the handsomeness that is BAst ....
ReplyDelete